Saturday, April 21, 2007

Discussion Forum

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Anonymous said...

Good Information.

Biby Cletus said...

Nice post, its a really cool blog that you have here, keep up the good work, will be back.

Warm Regards

Biby Cletus - Blog

Siva said...

Thanks for the informative article comparing the UPA with the Talibans (which they are). It would be nice if you could elaborate on the Babri structure demolition as well so that people who come this far would also learn the harsh truth about it. Perhaps a reference to Dr. Koenraad Elst's site would be well in place.

I'm sure that'll place a cap on people's speculations and this will be the preface of their exploration into the real Indian history.

Bodhi said...

Thanks to all the commentors.
I wish the readers sign the protest petition.

Siva, good suggestion. I have added a URL for Dr. Elst's site. Thanks for pointing.

Anonymous said...

i wholeheartedly support this campaign to preserve our heritage - and nature...

pradeep said...

I am against the destruction of the Sethu and remember, they are not destroying the Sethu alone -but the entire marine life in the area. But then the present Minister in charge had said that the project taken up by the Government does not affect the ecological balance at all. That is - he expects the public to beleive that even if the Seabed is turned upside down no damage would be done to ecology. Remember, this argument is from somebody who as the concerned Minister in the Centre (previous Ministry)successfully invoked some Forest or Environmental Act to stop a small check-dam being built in Kerala.

The entire project is utter waste of money and is being implemented from a very narrow parochial point of view, since big vessels are not going to use that narrow strip which is prone to cyclones.

Sembian said...

Assume that Ram built the bridge, where is it now ? Can anyone walk on the bridge ? It is already destroyed and under water.

What is this project destroying then ? Are you upset that the project is destroying a bridge that is already destroyed !!

Bodhi said...

Dear Sembian,

I also read your blog post where you tried to assert that the Rama Setu is only a natural structure, an 'Isthmus', and for other reasons why it can not be man-made.

Your approach to the question is similar to the one taken by the government, "Where is the proof that this bridge was built by Rama? If you can't prove that, then your beliefs are hollow and therefore the bridge is wrongly revered by you."

The stand is similar to:

"Before revering Kabaa, first prove scientifically that Kaba is really that place where God appeared before Abraham / Moses."


"Before believing in the divinity of Jesus Christ, it must be first proved archaeologcally that he existed, was born of the virgin mother, was crucified and then resurrected"

All of the above are plain absurd.

Kaaba is a holy site, whether the historicity can be proved or not. Jesus Christ is worshipped, irrespective of whether his existance and life can be scientifically proved.

This stand that government is taking is simply absurd, because the question here is not whether the bridge is man-made or nature-made, or investigating the proofs of Rama Setu. Question realy is:

a) whether the people in tradition have been revering Setu over ages?
b) If yes, then whether it is inevitable to destroy Setu which a Billion people revere? Or are there other viable alternatives to implement this project without destroying the Setu?

The discussion should be defined as :

"Are the merits of the present configuration of the channel, so advantageous as to worth destroying Rama Setu which is so important to Hindus (Man-made or Nature-made)?"


"Whether, considering that Setu is a matter of faith for Hindus, is it worth sparing, by seletion of an alternative channel route?"

suntel said...


I am very surprised to hear that Govt. has planned to destroy the Ram Setu. I have read the Chennai Govt. Tamilnadu government gazette that when Rama returned from Lanka he himself destroyed the bridge by shooting it with an arrow".

From last 50 to 100 years back only we have technology to build this types of long huge bridges across the countries. 100 years of before it is not possible. Tajmahal, Piramids etc can be prepared but a bridge from one country to another on sea was impossible mission for humans.

When I believe in Hinduism, I am also believe that only in the period of Ram "Satyoug" construction of bridge can be possible.

If Govt. don’t agree the ‘adams bridge’ to be ‘Ram Setu’, than also it can be preserved as a antique, rare historical monument.

Dismantling Ramsatu stating that it is not Ram Setu is a ANTI HINDUISM ACT. I strongly condemn it.

Sunil Patel.

arul said...

What an absolutely preposterous blog and what ridiculous comments. You people must be semi literate at best. I was not sure at first but now I strongly agree with the section of people who say that the Ram Sethu must be destroyed as soon as possible.
For example, look at this post:

Bodhi said...

The commentor who, without citing any rationale or logic, says, "...Ram Sethu must be destroyed as soon as possible", has, for sure, displayed the best scholarship and highest intellect, while the other commentors are 'semi-literate' and the blog itself is 'preposterous'.

Perfectly in line with the intellectual capabilities of TR Baalu, M Karunanidhi, Ambika Soni, and company...

To this, what can be said!

Narendra Kumar said...

The Ram Setu is the living proof of India's proud and ancient cultural heritage.

The congress insenstivity is not new .
They can sell the nation for a few dollars more.

dee said...

Agree that we must preserve our heritage and the marine life.
And with bodhis comments on faith.
Note that the start of the ramayana was with the hunting accident of king dasaratha. This set the stage for the exile of rama and sita. And that destruction always has grave consequences.
After the 2004 tsunami God gave back Bharat the land of the arrogant King Bali, from the ocean to the tamil nadu coast.
How we behave now will determine our future fate.

manisha said...

As written and posted on
Shree Hanuman Jayanti, 2007 -



It has been historically and traditionally accepted and asserted that our scriptures (like Vedas) are the Embodiment of the Totality of Highest Knowledge on which are based our religious traditions, our heritage and culture.

Ramayana, widely taken as one of the most sacred texts’, is based upon the life of Shree Rama, believed and worshipped as an Incarnation of the Supreme.
The text mentions the ‘Rama Sethu’, constructed by Shree Rama’s forces with Nal and Neel as the main architects, to cross the mega water body between India and Srilanka. It was a magnanimous man-made structure.

Satellite imagery by NASA , USA , has shown remains of a mega structure (bridge) -30kms long and 3kms wide, between Rameshwaram (in the state of Tamil Nadu, South India ) and Srilanka, at the same location as mentioned in the text. The construction material (blocks of shoals) used and the design (curvature) reveals that it’s man-made. Means of dating’ estimate it to be 17,00,000 yrs old, same age as mentioned in our text as Shree Rama’s era.
So, to sum it up, satellite imagery and means of dating, prove the Authenticity of the Great structure further reiterating that Ramayana is NOT a Legend, as misquoted, but Real History, based on which, have been the religious beliefs and practices of millions of people (esp. Hindus) over ages.
So in real sense, the structure is of very great significance to Humanity (esp. Hindus) on various planes –
religious, cultural, spiritual, also social and environmental!
Hence, its destruction, for whatever reasons, will cause damage on all the various planes and dimensions.
It will
- Hurt the religious, spiritual and cultural sentiments of millions of people
- Cause environmental damage
- Cause a big destruction to a large part of the Indian coastline through natural hazards like Tsunami since the great bridge has been responsible in protecting the coasts as a ‘Gigantic Barrier’
- Take away the livelihood of many a poor fishermen
- Last but not the least, it’ll destroy a Beautiful, Exemplary part of the World Heritage!

In the light of these facts, in totality, it won’t be out of place to question and condemn the destruction of Shree Rama Sethu vehemently -if necessary!
India is an entity where respect for belief systems and traditions is part of antiquity. It is precisely this antiquity, so sacred to our places of worship that is being systematically destroyed, annihilated and erased by our own governments and / or ’else (?)!! –Shree Rama Sethu being one such example!

A part of Shree Rama Sethu is being destroyed under a project called 'Sethusamudram Shipping Canal Project' (SSCP), the reason for which is
- to link Palk Gulf and Palk of Mennar by constructing a Shipping Canal to facilitate big ships and boats to pass through the Strait without having to follow the longer route of encircling Sri Lanka, a practice that has been followed for ages till now..?!.
This may -
Save about 400 nautical miles voyage on west coast.
Connect national sea route and national highways.
Save fuel which will further save foreign currency.
Decrease time taken for ship-voyage by about 16 hrs. enabling a possibility of increase in the number of ships navigating.

So, based on this ‘package’, it was taken as ‘inevitable’ by the Govt., to start SSCP, a move, most Questionable when experts of various fields have expressed’ against it –for various reasons of significance, respectively, giving alternatives as ‘Better Solution’. According to specialists, a sea-route may be prepared WITHOUT damaging Shree Rama Sethu by * removing the barren sand near village Mandapam, between Rameshwaram and Dhanushkoti Railway (all three, in the state of Tamil Nadu). This will not only give a shorter route for navigation but also Protect the ‘Oldest Man-made Heritage’! & In that sense, protect one of the Greatest World Heritage! *

A significant portion of the bridge is in the process of destruction by our own Govt., to satisfy their pecuniary hunger and missionary objectives!! Else, Why has the Govt. not taken all considerations into account, the sensitivity and gravity of the issue instead, started the work at such fast pace??!! What are their pressures??!! Why such hurry??!!
It is indeed difficult to comprehend or/and accept how it can annihilate an Ancient, Pious and Venerable bridge which has served as a Foot-bridge for ages, withstanding tremendous tempests and storms over Yugas, still standing Mighty as ever, as a piece of Engineering Marvel!
Have the Hindus gone in such slumber or are they so cowardly or/and materialistic that they have not the time to take this as another SERIOUS WAKE-UP CALL??!!.. As to overlook the very destruction of their religious sentiments and cultural roots?!! It is indeed a shame that materialistic culture has overwhelmed our sensitivity, from ‘yogic’ to ‘yuppie’ culture!
Perhaps, we all are not yet woken-up and aware about the devious designs of our so-called rulers (Govt., etc.) albeit ‘slaves’ ruled by their (?..)masters and their foul plays of mind, who are willing to even bow shamefully low!!
Please, let us ‘ARISE’ to the Call, at last, and resolve to fight against the Unholy policies and directions which hit at the very Roots of our religious values and beliefs!
Can the Divine Architectural Marvel ever be ‘Replaced’?!!
With the work already in process, can we afford to delay any further??!! We must unite and stand-up as per our capacities, against the verdict of the Govt. and the work ‘in process’.

If it had been a heritage of religious and cultural significance to Christians or Muslims, perhaps the Govt. would’ve gone out it’s way to protect the same & any attempt at it’s destruction would have resulted in enormous, lofty voices and if unheard, even mass destruction.

We (esp. Hindus) need to realize the magnitude of the issue and must unite and do our best to Prevent the massive step taken by the Govt. If we offer even one person per family, committed to save the Sethu, it would amount in a Team of Millions, & if need be (?) -a team of Millions of Rebels! .
A successful movement will compel the Govt. to abandon its spurious designs.. in this case, to dismantle a Unique, Priceless.. an Invaluable Religious and Historical Icon.

‘Let Us, the Sons and Daughters of God, Arise to Save Our Heritage!’

With Prayers and Best Regards

Jai Siyarama

venkat said...

RamSethu should not be touched.Its ours(Hindu).Somebody is trying to hurt our feelings.If it destroys chances of Smuggling and crimes at coastal side will increse.If it destroyes waves in that area will become stronger.Please stop it.



Khushboo said...

please create a chain mail 4 d same with da appeal
" If somebody propose a road that passes thru Ajanta Elora, Lal Qila or Victoria Mahal, will goverment dismantle them also"

if not, why the strong bridge ramsetu?

Khushboo said...

further information in this topic....

this huge is having accumulated sand over ages which is rich in THORIUM......this mineral is best for nuclear tests n weapons ...........n this become centre of attraction for US companies to get d contract of dismantling this bridge.......

n our "DESHDROHI" politicians r blindly supporting them to gain US favour.....

Khushboo said...

my question to arul:

"Give me one reason logically or politically, why bridge should be dismantled???"

Khushboo said...

arul again........
I think I m much more literate as comparison to you by my stand....

" Because the pious RAMSETU (or ADAM Strait for literate people like you) has accumulated sand rich in thorium over the years to make my (our if u think) INDIA powerful in nuclear field n research not for USA to enrich in nuclear power n then threatening India"


"Have u ever thought of effect what will happen when the bridge will be blasted by drilling massive holes in 60 places n filling with explosives" - A complete Ecological imbalance"


"Chennai Institute of Ocean Technology have proved that the bridge has played a vital role in saving Kerala from Tsunami....n destruction of Bridge may invite another Tsunami to destroy Kerala, Chennai n even affect Mumbai"


"Even scientists believe in a chemical engg solution of making the crust water under bridge free from salt to bring up the submerged bridge, which will then be used as HIGHWAY"


"If for the benefit of country, somebody propose a road that acrosses Ajanta Elora, Lal Qila or Taj Mahal, will you support for its dismantling"

if not... why "RAMSETU"

NK said...

I heard somewhere that even US is interested in destroying the RamSetu, as the move will also destroy the thorium reserves present in the region.Comment Pl.

NK said...

Also very interesting to note that can the GOI show the same frankness in commenting regarding religious beliefs of any other religion in India other than the Hindus.Surely a sign of Anti-Hindu mentality of GOI.

lost in dark n blue skies................ said...

hindu heritage should be preserved infact not about hindu lets talk just about a religion , any religion's important significances should not be demolished

Arun said...

This is very amaging that a country like India can't even defend their onw religion and faith in it onw backyard. we should aviod such instanses and live a mark on the world that Inda is no longer going to dance on their tunes. Rama was there as a integaral part of all Hindus life and will be always there in every ture Hindu's herat and mind.

Jai Shri Ram

Naxal Watch said...

"(Lest someone be misled by Ms Soni's name or Bindi, in thinking she is a Hindu, we must clarify in the passing that she is a devout roman catholic and vociferously anti-Hindu.)"

The sam applies to BRINDA KARAT , a dead Anti-Hindu commie, who fools Indian public totting with 1 Rupee size Bindi on her face

S.L. Soni said...

Authority of Government is no more than collective authority of people. When importance of Ramsetu is recorded in Skandpurana and it is utilized by majority of the people of India then it has become duty of the Government under Article 21 of the Constitution to not only preserve the Setu but make usable in the best possible manner.

Manaseh said...

I dont understand why people are not finding the technologies used in the Puspak Viman (an aircraft used by Ramar and Hanuman was his Pilot) Also the Missiles / Anti Missiles used in the war? Every thing is under the bridge. Indian Govt is going to find it for its LCA Project. (I thought it was 17,00000000000 year back super man story if we arr not able to find the Puspak Viman under the bridge.

Is there any vedas have inormation about the missiles used in Mahabharat / Ramayan? If os pl let the Govt knows about that. This will definitely save trillions of dollars and OUr country will be a super power.

I think thhis is the best time to dig the vedas little more and get more information and pass it to DRDO which is way behind all of its program.

Vishnu said...

People in the western are realizing the greatness of our Hindu culture and spiritual treasure and adopting in to their lifes,we fools are trying to destroy them with our own hands.


Mohan said...


sreekarachar said...

very happy to hear about the rama setu . please note.. our tradition says even in sruti(veda)setum drishtva brahma hatyaM vyapohati)means one who takes the danrshan of ramasetu hewill be free from all the sins like brahma hatya.. pls continue to protect the rama setu as well as the feelings of millions of hindus..thank you

sharadakashyap said...

Its good that we are discussing this issue?

But will it make any differnce TO UPA OR DMK?

Remember,Inspite of everything Sonia gandhi was successful in installing prathibha patil as president (even after the expose carried out by arunshourie which apperared in a leading news paper.


should WE file a PIL in the court to stop them???? OR ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS

Bodhi said...

sharadakashyap, can you please post the link, or e-mail us the contents of the ad you have mentioned?

"But will it make any differnce TO UPA OR DMK?"

Atharva Veda says:
kritam me dakshine haste, jayam me savyahitaah. (action is in my right hands, and victory in the left) And the action of informing people has already born fruits. Thanks to the public outrage, establishment will and is bending on its knees.

phreak said...

have a look at this site, it claims ram setu was built by Lord Rama and his vaanar sena 17 lacs 25 thousands years ago.

how funny is that????

Parthane said...

To answer your qusetion, When will Hindus learn to be civilized? , I have the following suggestions:
1. Hindus (Aryans ) should not learn the English langauge of Christians, and shouldn't go to Weat in search of jobs and education.
2. They should stay in India and learn Sanskrit and Hindi and write off Dravidians. Let the monkeys of Ramayana do what they like to do.
3. Get rid of the Christian or Gregorian calender and months, named after Roman Emperors. They should reinvent the months used in Ramarajya.

phreak said...

everything that happens in this world has a scientific reason.

ram may have built the bridge, and that was to commute to srilanka,he was in favour of technological advancement.

its a pity that his "bhakts" are against any development at all

phreak said...

a simple question and a conclusion

Hanuman blew up in size to bring an entire mountain because he didn the exact herb on that mountain.

then he flew to himalay from sri lanka and back.


couldnt he blow up in size and take ram and his army , so there would have been no need to build the setu at all


the ramayan may be true , but not all that is wrtten is true. many things are exaggerated over the centuries.

constructing the bandra worli seaface has taken more than 3 years. how can the setu have been built in 5 days?? this is something even retards will understand, but not some humans

Bodhi said...

I have enabled unmoderated commenting, trusting that the visitors would behave in decent manner and avoid using unnecessarily harsh language, sarcasm and so on. A serious discussion can still be had, but only with a proper decorum.

I fail to understand what is the point in some of the above posts e.g. that of Parthane. What did he/she mean with that stuff - I did not get.

phreak, I am responding to you trusting you have a genuine interest to argue - so I shall take my chances.

1. You said/asked:
"ram setu was built by Lord Rama and his vaanar sena 17 lacs 25 thousands years ago... how funny is that????"

A: That does sound a very exaggerated time line, but we don't know what is truth. Archaeology has not even be able to go back 2000 years upto excavating the proofs of Jesus. That far as suggested, seems impossible for the present time scope and capabilities of modern archaeology.

However, in hope to add to your information, recently there was an interesting news that appeared in the science journal 'Nature'. Writing on Wednesday in the journal Nature , the scientists described remains of three adults and one adolescent dating from about 1.77 million years ago, excavated at Dmanisi, about 88 kilometres southwest of the Georgian capital, Tbilisi.

Here is the link:

Repeat - 1.77 million years ago. This date reverberates and echoes the tretayuga in Bharatiya cosmology tradition.

Again, I am suggesting nothing at all, besides that the date of 1.75 million is not impossible at all. We can not prove anything at this time with our present tools of archaeology. But remember, the lack of evidence does not mean something did not happen! It only means we do not yet know it happened or did not happen and if happened how did it happen.

It is similar to the case of Troy. Once Troy was considered to be just a myth - until the city of Troy has been succesfully excavated. But then Troy is a much recent event.

2. Then in the next post you said: "its a pity that his bhakts are against any development at all".

A: Looks like you have not read the content of this website properly. While I can not comment on behalf of "bhakta-s", I can certain assure you that the major organized opposition in the present case - that from Subramanyan Swamy, RSS family, and other prominent Hindu Organizations involved worldwide, are NOT against the Sethusamudram Project itself. (if that is what you mean by development).

They are only against this particular channel configuration. All they are demanding is to use an alternative path, which not only is entirely possible, but is more economical and avoids damaging Ram Setu.

But that is much for sado-secularist progressives to accept. And they insist the project must be implemented THIS WAY ONLY. That is the conflict, please understand.

3. Then you said, "the ramayan may be true , but not all that is wrtten is true. many things are exaggerated over the centuries."

A: I can not agree more! Certainly things and exaggerations keep on getting added to the original narratives, as the time passes. That is but natural. Only organized religions like Christianism and Islamism, maintain a static narrative frozen in time.

phreak said...

nice arguments bodhi.

i am not against ram or hinduism(i am a hindu). but i am against the mockery of science and common sense. and what else mocks common sense than people believing unnatural feats described in the ramayan or the bible or the quran

i would like to discuss on the arguments you made

1)1.7 million years

the link you provided sure shows the existance of the ancestors of man. but it is hard to believe that this species could have formed kingdoms and armies like described in the ramayan.

quotes from the same article ----
"the skulls clearly show that these creatures had pea brains with a volume of half the size of Homo erectus."

a kingdom requires law abiding citizens,taxes,organizations.
but is there any evidence that this man could even talk??

early humans lived in groups for hunting, which was their only mode of survival, before man discoveredd farming and then stabilized. before that he was a wanderer.

RAM was an ape??

now, if ram belonged 1.7 million years ago, he would have been an ape for sure.

quotes from the same article---
"The Dmanisi skull instead shows that these creatures had faces and bodies like those of chimps with long dangling arms and short legs."

my argument

hanuman has been described as an ape, and that is not hard to believe. but ram and his whole kingdom has been described as human beings, the species which are present today.

now, hanuman and his species came fae to face with ram and his speices? wasnt there a fight for supremacy?? i am sure the law of survival of the fittest applied then, and suer they must have fought. and then maybe apes became slaves of "humans" and made them work over the setu.

but where did the "humans" come from?? time travel???


the story of troy doesnt talk of miracles. it doesnt mock common sense. there are no wars where a king fires arrows and it rains fire from the sky(this is what i have seen in telivision versions of ramayan).

i dont say ramayan is not true, it may or may not be, but the supernatural is avoidable

coming back to the setu

the ram setu is a perfect example of an isthmus(a narrow strip of land surroundd by water and joining two larger land masses)

read this article for a list of other isthmii.

the panama canal and the suez canals were made by breaking down such ishtmii.

valmiki may have cleverly used this isthmus for ramayan. but there is more reason to believe that it is natural and not man made


thank ou for your arguments bodhi.
i tried my best

phreak said...

link to famous istmii

dorry , i forgot to post this in the previous post said...


i think it is high time the hindu community came face to face with the truth that the story of Ram is just this..a story..and nothing more.

wake up..and start seeing the reality in scientific terms for your own survival..

RSS would certainly do better if it starts concentrating its efforts and money on more useful pursuits like education (scientific not orthodox) and hospitals etc.. rather than trying to fight a loosing battle with science..

Bodhi said...

first of all, let me make my position clear.

a) For one, I am not saying that historic Ram existed 1.7 million years back. All I am trying to do is to respond to your assertion that he did NOT exist 1.7 million years back.

b) two, I wish to show that the mask of "science" behind the argument of such people is only a mask, without substance.

c) lastly, though thanks for telling that you are a Hindu, but that does not matter - as it does not add to

or substract from the merit of anything that you are saying..

having made this clear, let me get into your statements

1) you said: "1.7 million is hard to believe that this species could have formed kingdoms and armies"

Science works on the principle of 'Systematic and methodic study to discover the truth.' Until such study is concluded within the available means beyond any doubts, it does not speculate anything. A Scientist discovers, analyses or synthesises the comprehensive evidence, and then accordingly proves new theories or disproves existing ones. Like Galilio disproved the common christian belief of his contemporary Europe that the earth was flat and the sun revolves around the earth. But until he did disprove it using facts, he did not go about distributing the speculations.

Now, the science DOES APPROVE this much by now, that some kind of civilization of proto-humans (not necessarily of modern homo-sapiens, as you suggest) COULD HAVE EXISTED 1.7 million years ago. The end of facts available as of now. Science has yet to go any far beyond this to prove or disprove anything. All that you say or I say beyond this point is speculation born from pseudo-science.

Look at the ASI's affidavit, in which TR Baalu's men translated that 'No evidence that Rama existed' into "Historic Ram did not exist". This inference is a classic example of pseudo-science, even anti-science.

A scientific line of though will have to be: "Ram did not exist" because fact a, fact b, and fact c are true. Facts a, b and c are to be independently proved to be true and unrelated.

A non-scientist first draws a conclusion, and then works backwards to find the arguements to support the pre-drwan conclusion. On the contrary, a scientist first finds all the facts, and then based upon the facts he has found (and NOT based upon the absence of facts) drwas his concusions.

But look at your so-called argument. Here you are saying "a kingdom requires law abiding

citizens,taxes,organizations. but is there any evidence that this man could even talk?".

There are no 'facts' in the above statement - only absence of facts are hinted. Absence of the fact is - "no evidence of what were the capabilities of that proto-human". Absence of our knowledge about their capabilities does not mean that proto-human did not have those capabilities. Please understand the difference.

Let us divert a bit to clarify through an example, and talk about the scientific evidence of Jesus's

existance. Bible - at least the New Testament - is/was generally taken to be full of History. Jesus is linked inseparably with the town of Nuzareth in it as the Saviour and Messiah of Nuzareth. The latest researches show that the town of Nuzareth did not even exist before 200 AD. That much is a fact. Which means that these three facts are incompatible - Historical Jesus, Town of Nuzareth, and the time when Jesus

was supposed to have been at Nuzareth. One of the facts has got to be wrong. Either the fact about that person having been at that place is wrong, or having been at that time is wrong. This will prove that one of the following is true:
a) JESUS did not exist in the town of Nuzareth.
b) Jesus did not exist before 200 AD

That is some evidence.

If Histority of Ram has to be disproved, one must bring the evidences of "WHY RAM COULD NOT HAVE BEEN A HISTORICAL FIGURE". I have yet to see that proof in any lengths of arguments that I have seen so far in name of "science".

2) You said. "RAM was an ape?? now, if ram belonged 1.7 million years ago, he would have been an ape for sure"

phreak, I shall presume that it is only your innocent ignorance about the true happenings in real "science".

Let me first update your information about the history of the evolution of Huminids (which in greek literally means Ape, and of which Homo Sapien is the latest evolved and only surviving sub-species today).

As per the latest stand of the scientists about this, the "Humans" and "Monkeys" (losely using both the terms for the lack of any simpler words) had already separated very much from the common source of evolution (if at all) by at least 7 million years ago or even before. A humanid fossil excavated in Chad 6 years ago attests to this fact. This was published in Nature journal some time back - see this link.

This means that by 1.7 million years back, the time YOU started talking about, apes and Humanids were very different and ndependent parallel species.

3) You said: "the story of troy doesnt talk of miracles. it doesnt mock common sense."

Have you ever read the story of Troy yourself or merely speculating? I think you are only speculating, because the whole epic (which is "Iliad" of Homer), is full of highly intriguing and unbeleivable descriptions. Since it is not in scope, I shall not go into this too much, but Illiad is available online - google for it and read it yourselves. Just I shall meantion a few things that I remember off my head right now - the great hero and warrior of it, that is Achilles, his prANa (life) is in his heels. Only if his heels will be targeted shall he die! While his father was a human, his mother is a sea-nymph. Just like duryodhana's mother had made him "stone-hard" except for his thigh, same way achiles' mother made him invulnerble in all parts of body except heels. Athena the Godess fights with him on his side and protects him. Achilles chokes the waters of a great river. and so on.

In the end, I shall just add this. The whole point is NOT whether Ram existed or not, and how much back in time did he live. Those are interesting questions and must be explored for sure. But that is the not the central question of the present issue. Same thing about the other useless question - "HOW exactly was the Setu developed - constructed or evolved." In which way are these questions relevant to the present issue of why Setu should be damaged?

The simple point is this. Hindus, since times immemorial, at least since last 2500 years, have been treating this structure with religious sacredness. Is this really inevitable to damage the structure? Are there no other alternatives? Options and all the dimensions have been evaluated? Benefits of this configuration of the channel are so manyfold as to warrant this destruction inevitably?

However the pseudo-seculars and pseudo-rationalists, divert the question into "whether Ram existed" and "whether this structure was man-made or nature-made".

That is the mockery of science. That is the mockery of common-sense. AT least dont use the mask of "science" - since that does not fit the face.

Parthane said...

Mr Bodhi says" I fail to understand what is the point in some of the above posts e.g. that of Parthane. What did he/she mean with that stuff - I did not get."

Search your bloody heart and you will see callouos hypocirisy and double-tongued Indiannss. No wonder the damn country is stuck in you- know -what.

Bodhi said...

Parthane said...
"Search your bloody heart and you will see callouos hypocirisy and double-tongued Indiannss. No wonder the damn country is stuck in you- know -what."

So much anger. For what?

phreak said...

i missed the target on troy, i have never read it, i based my opinions on the movie (brad pitt), where no such miracles were mentioned.

in fact the movi shows a very believeable version of the illiad of homer.

achilles ankle was the only unguarded part of his body. his whole body except the ankle were protected by armour.

a sensible interpretation of a miracle.

Ram may have existed, it is yet unproved, so may have existed, that is what i have maintained in my posts, i have never said he did not exist.

you say science has to take into account all evidence.
that is so true. that is why it is called science and so few people attempt to understand it.

so unlike mythology, which states any fiction in the name of god, and the common man does not even attempt to understand it, he takes it for granted.

also, i would like to cooment on emotions attached to religion.
i can sense you were upset that i said ram may be an ape, but that is a part of the procedure of proving his exsitence, as u said, science has to take into account all possibilities.
so please dont bring into picture religious emotions

phreak said...

our political leaders are hypocrites.

karunanidhi deviated from the ram setu debate and called ram a dtunkard.
what basis has he used for this , does anyone know?

vedanti has called for karunanidhi's head.
what a shame, this man has done a doctorate on valmiki's ramayan.
but he neds a basic lesson on mannerisms first.

meanwhile, the ram setu issue has been forgotten.

hail indian politics

shivaparvati_3 said...

Jai Shri Ram.

Dhany wada for the wonderful information. I live in the usa and would like to contribute to the preservation of the ecolife and the historical importance of the only civil society in the world , from whence law emerged . My e-mail is

Could you fund research for the cities that are in the ocean and emerged during the tsumani. said...

would you please explain what do you mean by "the only civil society" in the world?

this is an absurdly stupid notion considering that you yourself left this "only civil society in the world" to make a living in the usa.

this is the biggest issue with us indians. we are the biggest hypocrites on the face of earth.

shivaparvati ji, siraf naam rakhne se aapka country "civil" nahin ho jata..grow up please..

Bodhi said...

This site is dedicated to Ram Setu issue. For anything else, please find some other forum. On this forum, please stick to this topic only. If comments irrelevent to Ram Setu are posted in future, I shall be forced to delete those.

U.Sanjeeva Rao said...

Pl refer to the book Sexual Life in Ancient India by JOHANN JAKOB MEYER PUBLISHED BY MBD Publishers page 530 note 1 mentions that Buddhist version of is found in the curious treatment of the Ramayana material in Chavannes,cinq cents contes, i, 177. This confirms Sri Rama is not an imaginary figure but existed in reality and Ramayana is true story of Sri Ram and not a myth. If Buddha is true then Sri Ram is also true including Sethu and Lanka. The old Buddhist rexts are to be analysed for more information.

U.Sanjeeva Rao

phreak said...

mr. sanjeeva rao,

the book talks about sexual patterns over the past 2000 years.

follow the link for a description of the book

the desciption says
"This is an authoritative presentation of the literary data concerning the status of women in India 2, 000 years ago. It is essentially a descriptive work: selecting the relevant passages from the ancient literature"

where does the ram setu come into question?

Sunder said...

Any destruction of such holy sites never left the respective country in peace .Taliban saw peace the last time ,after the destruction of Buddah statues.Same is Ayodya.It should not happen to India or TN.I pray God that Tamil Nadu be saved from ruthless atheist.Thos who show no mercy to their own nephews , what will they show to the common people.


Goodone to share with all INDIANS
Pl try to pass to our freinds

phreak said...

dhnjhdyour post is hilarious mr.sunder.

first, you compare atheists to taliban
now, taliban operates under the name of allah. god is what atheists are against.

second, you call the setu project a ruthless destruction?
infact , it will help in the country's progress by saving tons of fuel.

Bodhi said...

Please calculate the estimated "saving of fuel". present here the calculation.

Anony said...

It is ironic that many who support the Sethusamudram project seem to do so for political reasons than from truly economic concerns. Many scientists have already said that the project will substantially increase the risks of destruction and damage to the region from future Tsunamis. Marine biologists have already commented that the shipping project will destroy substantial amounts of the precious marine life in the region, and alter the ecosystem. Others have expressed concern about the fishing communities that have lived there for a long time. And so forth..

Has none of the supporters for the project been following up on these concerns? They seem more obsessed about disproving whether or not the bridge is man-made. Suppose even if it were NOT man-made, does it give the government or certain interest groups the legitimate right to destroy something that can have number of serious repercussions for the environment and communities living there?

It seems ironic that some people are talking about how the project will save 'fuel!' How sad is that.

phreak said...

cmr anony

you have made a valid point. and i totally agree with your concerns regarding the environment and tsunamis.

this is the basic plot over which the debate should be fought and the pros and cons weighed.

however, due to a major section of society , the whole plot has changed.

the issue of whether the bridge is man made or not was raised by certain political parties.

now, these political parties take a big advantage of the religious emotions of people.

it is a perfect tool to grab publics attention and support.

in this whole play, the general public is disillusioned under the name of god, and blindly believe in HIS "magic".

in short, the debate over the creation of the bridge was not started by the supporters of the project

Bodhi said...

Dont beat around the bush. come good on your words. show the calculation of how much "fuel" of the nation will the sscp save, in order to justify ignoring the sentiments of many hindus.

phreak said...

beating around the bush ????

isnt it obvious that the new proposed path is substantially shorter than the existing path??

definitely, fuel is going to be saved(a lot of fuel).

what figures do you need?

who is beating around the bush?

Bodhi said...

OK, so all you have studied the subject is to know that "Lots" of fuel will be saved, as it is "obvious". (not a very scientific observation eh? "Lots" and "Obvious"?)

1. The new route (through SSCP), will be slighly shorter in terms of nautical miles, in comparison to the existing route, for about 1000 ships per year (of less than 32 kilo dwt). "fuel saving" however might be only very marginally, because the fuel consumption depends not upon the nautical distance but also on the speed of navigation, sea depth, and maneuvering needed etc.

2. While there is savings in distance navigating through the SSCP, this does not automatically translate into commensurate savings in time, on account of the 'slow speeds' required to navigate through the SSSCP.

Speed of ships through the SSCP would be less than half (6 to 8 knots) of what it is now (12 to 15 knots). this is because of the lack of clearance that will be present between see bed and ship bottom, even after the palk strait is dredged.

This is on account of a phenomenon termed 'SHALLOW WATER EFFECT',or,'SQUAT EFFECT,where the ship's propellers tend to seek the sea bottom while proceeding at High Speeds in shallow waters. The SSSCP is to have a dredged depth of 12 meters and can be used by ships having a draught of upto 10.7 meters. Thus the difference between the ship's keel and the sea bottom will be 12.0-10.7=1.3 metres. This explains the necessity for 'slow speeds' through the SSCP.

3. Besides every ship will have to be piloted through the 152 km long channel by a pilot ship - which means extra fuel spent in piloting the ships though this 152 km stretch.

plus the wait time for the pilots to be ready and available at the entrance of the channel on both sides for the merchantile ships.

It is mandatory for ships using the SSSCP to embark a 'pilot'. At a conservative estimate, a time 2 hours has to be added to passage time calculations. Under actual conditions, this time may be more than the 2 hours. All the major ports of India suffer from a shortage of 'pilots'. Therefore, the SSSCP is also likely to suffer from this prevailing malaise. It is therefore appreciated that vessels arriving at the 'pilot boarding grounds' at the SSSCP may have to anchor and await 'pilot boarding'. In this light, it would further tend reduce the difference in time between circumnavigating Sri Lanka and using the SSCP.

4. plus the wait time if a ship is broken on the passage (which does happen) and has to be rescued. Since the shannel is only one lane each way, a broken ship means the jamming of the channel. (this also means that Indian Navy will NOT use the channel in war-time operations as it becomes vulnerable)

5. Captain (Retd) AH Balakrishnan of Indian Navy calculates the promised fuel saved to be marginal - even negligible - equivalent to the fuel of about 2 hours of sea travel, for a shipment from Kolkata to Tuticorin or return. He says: "Navigating through the Sethusamudram Canal, does reduce the distances between Kolkata/Cennai and Tuiticorin. This will reduce fuel costs. However, this advantage will be offset by anticipated 'high pilotage rates' and 'time delays' in embarking 'pilot'."

(let me present the detailed calculations in my upcoming post.)

In brief, this is the benefit, of the "150 year old dream".

and the costs?

- initial Rs 24,000 Cr. (to go up to 30,000 Cr. in reality)
- annual Rs 1000 Cr for ongoing dredging to offset for the silting at bed
- cost of staffing the operations
- cost of security to protect the traffic (e.g. from LTTE). This comonent is completely missing today since the traffic does not have to come closer to the striking distance of LTTE today.

plus the non-tangible costs:
- damage to the Ram Setu, icon of beleif for milions.
- unknown risks of ecological imbalance
- risk to western Coast from Tsunamis
- undeterminable efects on marne-biology
- thorium drift
- lack of free access to the fishing waters to the Tamil fishermen.
- strategic disadvantage, as it will officially make a declared, de-facto, "international" waters between where Indian boundary ends and where Sri Lankan starts. USA has been not recognizing that as historic waters claimed unitedly by Indiaand Sri Lanka so far, in fact they have been claiming that as International waters. Now with our unilateral marking of the boundary in ocean, there is a clearer definition of internation, no-mans-waters.

In the end, another Tughalakabad in making, if you know who was Muhammad bin tuglak and his endeavor, and what it did to him ultimately.

Anony said...


Is this all your entire case for financial feasibility of the project rests on - "because the shipping route is shorter, some fuel will be saved, and hence this project is financially desirable!"

How very disappointing! You don't seem to have thought things through very clearly or thoroughly. I hope for your sake, you are NOT an MBA student. It will be disastrous to ask you to write up project proposal for any project, doing a cost/financial feasibility study on the project. Your proposal will, without doubt, be the most simplest, and reflect a waste of money spent on MBA education!

From the nautical point of view, there is an interesting interview with Captain (retired) H Balakrishnan of the Indian Navy. He gives his views, from the point of a mariner, on the feasibility of the project. This feasability also reflects the costs that might acrue to the transportation (shipping) industry.

Based on the various reports from marine biologists, environmentalists, oceanographers, social workers (concerned with the welfare of fishing communities), and from the mariners, I suspect that the motive for going ahead with the project has nothing to do with economic returns for the state, or welfare of the common man, or the efficiency, cost effectiveness, and convenience in the transportation of goods for the shipping industry, or any other 'pure' motive. I suspect that the real reason may be kick-backs for the TN and UPA/Congress politicans from the project, and possibly LTTE influence in TN. We already know that the Congress party was heavily involved in recieving kickbacks in the Bofors arms deal. Ram Sethu project will provide the DMK politicians and many Congress/UPA politicians (especially Sonia Gandhi and her family/friends, who have been involved in the Bofors kickbacks), opportunities for instant wealth.

elu336 said...

Hi All,
Every Ram supporter should read this.

Please read this article published by FRONT LINE Magazine (5th Oct 2007)


tkumar said...

I have not had time to go through all the comments and news to know if anyone has considered the following issue.

Have the Hindus ever attempted to find out if it is possible to relocate the so called bridge or even part of it? Consider this: people have spent millions of dollars on a voluntary basis to relocate ancient artifacts being affected by the "three gorges " in

With the current technological advance, anything is possible provided the right kind of money !!
Indian NRI Indian Hindus have spent nearly billions of dollars on building lavish temples. Then why not spend money on relocating the sethu (which can be scientifically dated).

My second thought is: Kasrunanidhi should know better rather than make such a stupid, and inflammatory statement. Here is my challenge to him and his supporters.. Can he make a similar statement questioning the existence of Allah,
or Jesus Christ? I don't think he can. He makes such statements against Hindus, since Hindus are always believed to be weak...This does not mean that I am inciting violence. May be the right kind of questions will silence these stupid politicians..

Bodhi said...

elu336 said:
"Every Ram supporter should read ..article published by FRONT LINE.."

Aaaa....h Sorry, yawn.

URL gives away your motive. PAY.Hindu.COM. (anti-)Hindu sandwitched between PAY and COMMERCE.

How much does the Peoples Republic of China pay your communist stooges like Naxal Ram of the (anti-)Hindu news paper and its Front-Lying weekly, to do the usual propoganda for subverting India's national interests?

"Ram supporters" you said? oh yeah I forgot you folks are Ravan-supporters, like your partner and leader Karunanidhi, right? He said only a few years back - "If you insult Ravana, you are insulting me." LINK

tkumar, I dont know what to say, as I dont know whether you are joking or serious.

phreak said...

zmr anony,

opening of the sethu samudram canal route does not mean shutting down of the original route around sri lanka.

it is like having two routes. different ships can be assigned priorities for using wither routes.

my point is, having this new rote is beneficial to the country. definitely having two routes will do more good than harm.

PS i have not yet decided whether i am going to do an MBA.

but please , you dont become a career counsellor

Anony said...


You still have not explained WHY you think the new route will be beneficial to the country. Simply by repeating your assertion - that the new route will be beneficial to the country - does not make it so! Where is your reasoning and rationale? Haven't seen anything concrete from you by way of a discussion. I take it then that your entire premise is based on this single line of thought: "route is shorter, fuel will be saved, therefore the new project will be beneficial (by the way, how much fuel will be saved – can we at least have some estimates on that?).

The various reports have already established that the project will prove more costly and ineffective at many levels in the long run. I take it, then, from your lack of insight and constant assertion (to the point of becoming boring and repetitive) that you are neither a mariner, evnvironmentalist, oceanographer, MBA, economist, ecologist, social worker, nor have any knowledge or training on any subject remotely connected to the proposed project. You have not been able to produce a single line of argument worth reading, or listening to.

Unfortunately, you are not the first person, or the only person, to be clueless about what is exactly going on. Your counterparts in TN government, that are promoting the project in a Grand manner(!) are equally clueless, and have yet to answer any of the questions or concerns posed by various non-religious groups on the project feasibility and benefits.

Again, this lends me to believe that the ONLY reason that some selective interest groups in TN government and the Center are pursuing this project is for the kickbacks/commissions that they hope to receive from the project. And it would not be the first time that Indian politicians will be indulging in mass corruption, in the form of bribery, kickbacks, commissions, from a project deal at the expense of the common man.

p.s. Assuming I were a student counsellor, and you were an MBA student (or a student in any other subject), you already know now what my advice to you would be. My another advice to you would be - don't post any further messages, until you have thought, studied and analyzed things through more thoroughly, with respct to this project.

raji said...

To hear an old man who has sustained in the political field for 70 years or so mainly by humiliating the Hindu religion ask"who is Rama? or was He an engineer?" isn't surprising.
he has all the rights to ask these and more questions as long as he is just a street walker. But holding an office swearing for a secular governance and still has the guts to challenge the majority"s faith(minorities indeed when it comes to policies.)is something the people and the BJP have to take into their hands. No we can't expect the central government to interfere.Because the present center is of a bunch of invalids and a shameful lots.
when Gandhi asked the Congress to be dissolved after independence he foresaw what it would be reduced to. the force which fought against the shackles of a foreign reign has fallen shamefully into an Italian hand.
And our tamilnadu head wants nothing but to plant his sons and daughter in the center and reap the cuts enjoyed by the MPs there.
The Muslims are brothers the Christians are Sisters but the Hindus....? they are to be abolished like what Hitler did in Germany. even a holocaust of Hindus is welcome in this secular state. But don't worry you will be given just one chance to prove that your religion is a registered one!!
of course such treatments are not new to us. we had these and more in 12th to 16th century.
oh yes Rama sethu....? Who is Rama?
you ask and you are safe in this country!!
Hey Ram

Bodhi said...


thanks for commenting.


once again, to help you come out of "fuel would be saved" myth, I present some calculation here.

Promoters and supporters of SSCP often cite fuel saving as the primary, if not sole, objective of the project. They oft repeat the claims of SSCP is that iy would "saving of upto 424 nautical miles (780 Km) and upto to 30 hours in sailing time". And the reduction of the route primarily and obviousely translates into savings of tonnes upon tonnes of shipping fuel, they deduce, but never present any calculations to back it up, as we are seeing in the case here in your comments.

However, a closer look at the proposal reveals this claim to be nothing but a myth. It takes little effort to see the hollowness of the claim.

Distance Saved
Captain (retired) H Balakrishnan - a career mariner of Indian Navy for 32 years - has considered the Tutikorin-to-Kolkata shipping route as the baseline, and compared the two paths - one via circumnavigating Sri Lanka which is the case today, and second via the proposed route of the SSCP. The voyage distance around Sri Lanka works out to 1227 nautical miles, and through the canal, around 1098 nm. So, he calculates, that the reduction of voyage is roughly about 120 nautical miles.

Time Saved
To translate that reduction in distance into the time saved, one needs to look at the speed of ships in both the alternative routs. Captain Balakrishnan explains that the speed of voyage through the 160-odd KM long channel is not going to be more than half of what it is through the present route in the open sea. This is because of the shallow water that would be encountered in the channel, which would allow the gap between the ship's keel and the sea bottom to only be as low as 1.3 metres. While navigating through such low-gap shallow waters, the ship propellers tend to seek the sea bottom while proceeding at high speeds. Therefore, it mandates that the ships passing through the shallow SSCP should not navigate faster than the speed of 6 to 8 knots, that is at the best of the weather conditions. On the contrary, the present navigation speed through the open sees circumnavigating Sri Lanka, ranges from 12 to 15 knots.

At these navigation speeds, the Tutikorin-to-Kolkata voyage time around Sri Lanka comes out to be between the range of 81 to 102 hours. Voyage time around SSCP, for Tutikorin-to-Kolkata, comes out to be in the range of 78 to 98 hours. Which means that the potential saving the sailing time through the SSCP route of the voyage, would be from 3 to 4 hours.

That is not all.

Any ship passing through the SSCP would have to mandatorily undertake the 160 KM long voyage along with a 'pilot'. The ship would stop at the channel entrance for pilot to embark upon and then navigate it through the channel. Based upon the typical pilot-related delays prevailing at various ports of India today, it can be easily taken to be at least 2 hours, in the most optimistic scenario. This brings down the effective voyage time reduction through the channel to less than 2 hours!

So that is the time saved by the SSCP - 2 hours for a ship from Tutikorin bound to Kolkata.

Fuel Consumption
Now, let us compute the fuel savings for the 120 nm of distance saved and 2 hours of time saved. The fuel consumption is a function of shipping speed. As per the Navy researchers, the fuel consumption is a cubic function of ship speed. Fuel Use = C0 + C1*V + C2*V^2 + C3*V^3 where C0, C1 and C2 are constant coefficients related to shipping conditions and V is the shipping speed. We have referred to the US Navy archives to understand the correlation of Shipping Fuel Consumption with the Ship speed. Relevant research documentation can be referred at Statistical analysis of different classes of ships, show that navigating at slow speed like 6 to 8 knot, as would be the case in the SSCP, would mean higher fuel consumption per nautical mile as compared to navigating at 12-15 knots. Due to this, the fuel consumption would actually go up in case of navigating through the SSCP, as compared to navigating around the Sri Lanka as is the case today.

This myth is a rather very easily busted, that there would be a lot of fuel saved by SSCP, because clearly there would be none!

brando said...

Ram setu controversy

1 In the past few weeks enough TV and print media have discussed about Ram and his existence ‘ for and against’. I feel everybody on to his own as far own beliefs are concerned, rather making a political or economical issues of it.

2 For all those who don’t believe in Ram and Ramayana , all I could ponder on it was
(a) How could Valmaki million of years back could traverse walking a vast landscape of this country from Nepal ie Janak Puri to Ayodha to Allahabad, Varanasi etc all UP to MP to Maharahtra ie Nasik, just to script a tale co relating with ground stations. There were no flights during those days except Rama flight from srilanaka. ( I have seen many spots in down south near Pune, NASIK, etc where Rama is believed to have come) to further down South across Sri Lanaka.

( b) Then how could Valamaki know of an underground bridge till Sri lanaka when modern NASA cameras were not there and script a fable on such a bridge on same spot.

(c ) How could Valmaki cross Sri Lanka and again start scripting a battle with Sita being kidnapped. There are many spots in SriLanaks where folk lore is there .

(d) If Valmaki was just a script writer then he was the best as he took so much pains walking till Srilanak describing each spot as in modern India correlating with his script as described in Ramayana billion of years back.

( e) The honest truth I think is it was not a mere make believe script as it is not possible even today with all modern means available if I have to write a script of George Bush going on a trekking across USA and co relating it with ground unless it happens with its tale /story being passed on to me or I visit it and see it myself.

(f) I sincerely believe Ramayan happened and every aspect of it was there as it also exist on ground in today’s time. Ramsetu was part of history of Ram. How it was made, maybe those floating stones which still exist can provide some clue.

3. For all those who believe in Ram Religion is a personal issue. If we believe Ram was there, then live a little bit to what he stood for ie Ramarajaya in own sphere of life.

Alpesh said...

Shirdi Sai Baba on Setu bridge of Ramayana

Bodhi said...

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